Discussion:
Instafilk: I am Groot
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Spear Carrier
2016-11-28 06:40:13 UTC
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"Instafilk" coined by Leslie Fish.

Just returned from Starbase Indy, a place that once upon a time had much filk (I am told) but had none until I and the other half arrived. Being as I know all of (counts) four songs, this meant I found myself often in the position to make up something. So I told people I had made up a song, and I would welcome them singing it. That it didn't matter if they completely understood the inflections; they'd get it as they went along. And I'd like to pass it to all of you, to educate the masses forthwith.

Do you want to sing a triumphant song? A sad song? A song just saying you like cheese? Decide, and then tell your audience a line of complete BS about what the song is about. Be sure and tell them you just wrote the song but you're sure they'll be able to sing along in no time.

Strum an appropriate bar. (I'm using an autoharp. Translate that as needed.)

Sing: I am Groot.

Strum another appropriate bar. Sing: I am Groot.

Rinse, repeat for another bar or two. Now comes the finale.

"We are Groot."

This song can be embellished with other sounds and educational explanations about how the next song is something sad, or about love, or in Groot's case spawning seeds... etc.

The audience loved it this weekend.

As a side note: strumming a random bar and announcing you are Groot when fighting tends to end disagreements as well.

__________

Further down and possibly off topic, I was given 1000 or so filk songs in a tome that apparently used to get passed down, photocopied, passed down. I'd like to keep adding to this grimoire and continue the tradition a bit. If anyone is okay with me adding their song please let me know. Ideally what I would do is add songs, bring books to a convention, find someone, give away. I'm going to digitize it, too, but trust me. That's going to take a loooong while.
Rich Brown
2016-11-28 18:16:52 UTC
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Post by Spear Carrier
Further down and possibly off topic, I was given 1000 or so filk songs
in a tome that apparently used to get passed down, photocopied, passed
down. I'd like to keep adding to this grimoire and continue the
tradition a bit.
If anyone is okay with me adding their song please let me know. Ideally
what I would do is add songs, bring books to a convention, find someone,
give away. I'm going to digitize it, too, but trust me. That's going to
take a loooong while.
Unless it clearly says otherwise, my stuff is reusable under a Creative
Commons BY-NC-SA license
(see: https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/4.0/)
and giving away compilations falls under noncommercial. Optional: if you
do reuse something I've written I would like to hear about it.

http://freemars.org/filk/
If your interests don't include Cthulhu, Politics, & Paranoia there's
little there that you will find worthwhile.
Spear Carrier
2016-11-28 20:57:43 UTC
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Post by Rich Brown
Unless it clearly says otherwise, my stuff is reusable under a Creative
Commons BY-NC-SA license
(see: https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/4.0/)
and giving away compilations falls under noncommercial. Optional: if you
do reuse something I've written I would like to hear about it.
Yeah, I was more thinking of the old "share" mentality that used to be more prevalent than now. But if someone doesn't want people swinging their songs around a campfire, then I wouldn't want it to be in the book.

I didn't see your name in this book, but I did see Anne MacCaffery, Leslie, even Bob Cook. =^-^= And some names that show at least parts of it was compiled by people on a first name "nickname" basis with some folks I can only picture meeting. For someone like me who grew up after the first real filking wave, it's pretty darn cool. The husband has been calling it "The Artifact". I just refer to it as my precious.. ss.
Post by Rich Brown
http://freemars.org/filk/
If your interests don't include Cthulhu, Politics, & Paranoia there's
little there that you will find worthwhile.
Sounds right up our alleyway. Thank you!
Gary McGath
2016-11-29 10:42:03 UTC
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Post by Spear Carrier
Yeah, I was more thinking of the old "share" mentality that used to be more prevalent than now. But if someone doesn't want people swinging their songs around a campfire, then I wouldn't want it to be in the book.
I don't object to anyone singing my songs anywhere, as long as they
aren't getting paid for it, but I object to having anything I've written
or recorded published without my permission. I write for a living.
--
Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com
Lee Gold XP
2016-11-29 11:56:18 UTC
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Post by Gary McGath
Post by Spear Carrier
Yeah, I was more thinking of the old "share" mentality that used to be
more prevalent than now. But if someone doesn't want people swinging
their songs around a campfire, then I wouldn't want it to be in the book.
I don't object to anyone singing my songs anywhere, as long as they
aren't getting paid for it, but I object to having anything I've written
or recorded published without my permission. I write for a living.
I also object to having anything I've witten published (i.e. printed or
put on the Web or recorded) without my permission -- especially with the
words changed or with my name dropped off.

--Lee
Spear Carrier
2016-11-29 17:33:42 UTC
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Okay. So... if you guys happen to be in the book I should take out the entries when passing it on to other people; gut the book? Not putting your stuff on the web is easy.

Lee, I get what you're saying but I've got this person here who would like clarification. He's says, "But that's like not posting "The Spirit of the Enterprise" because it's set to the tune of "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" because the author of Battle Hymn doesn't like that the words have been changed." But it seems to me you're talking about an original song by you.
Spear Carrier
2016-11-29 17:38:52 UTC
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For the record, after searching high and low we couldn't find a complete filk lyric database/wiki except one possibility... in German. This project has my husband more interested in music (excellent for veterans) so I've spent my day and most of my night putting together a wikipedia page for him to play with as well as to record the tome. So I'm very thankful you guys have spoke up. If you'd like a wiki entry about you directing people to your website, we can add that. PR and all. I don't know if we're serious about doing this - time and other important actors. So far with the help of other filkers we've managed to date the start of the book to about 1995.
Paul Rubin
2016-11-29 18:58:33 UTC
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Post by Spear Carrier
For the record, after searching high and low we couldn't find a
complete filk lyric database/wiki except one possibility... in
German. This project has my husband more interested in music
(excellent for veterans)
I don't know if there's ever been a "complete" public database; there
are some like http://www.filkarchive.org.uk/ that don't try to be
complete, and there are various private collections (traditionally
on huge stacks of paper like what you have) that people build up
over the years.
Post by Spear Carrier
so I've spent my day and most of my night putting together a wikipedia
page for him to play with as well as to record the tome.
If you mean an actual page on wikipedia.org, it's likely to be deleted
or messed up by the Wikipedia bureaucracy. If you mean something on
your own site, that's much more under your control so a better plan.
Another idea could be to work with Filkarchive or to host materials on
archive.org, which is much more accepting than Wikipedia about stuff
like this.
Rafe Culpin
2016-11-29 19:34:00 UTC
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Post by Paul Rubin
I don't know if there's ever been a "complete" public database; there
are some like http://www.filkarchive.org.uk/ that don't try to be
complete, and there are various private collections (traditionally
on huge stacks of paper like what you have) that people build up
over the years.
The Filk Archive is offline indefinitely due to accounts having been hacked. They
are working on re-writing the security but this may take a while.
--
To reply email rafe, at the address filk co uk
Information on filk in the UK: http://filk.co.uk/
Spear Carrier
2016-11-30 07:41:05 UTC
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Post by Paul Rubin
I don't know if there's ever been a "complete" public database; there
are some like http://www.filkarchive.org.uk/ that don't try to be
complete,
I just tried to go there and got a 404 forbidden message. Disappoint.
Post by Paul Rubin
If you mean an actual page on wikipedia.org, it's likely to be deleted
or messed up by the Wikipedia bureaucracy. If you mean something on
your own site, that's much more under your control so a better plan.
Landsakes, not on wikipedia. What I want to do is too involved. It's on my own server.
Lee Gold XP
2016-11-29 20:42:33 UTC
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Post by Spear Carrier
Okay. So... if you guys happen to be in the book I should take out the entries when passing it on to other people; gut the book? Not putting your stuff on the web is easy.
Lee, I get what you're saying but I've got this person here who would like clarification. He's says, "But that's like not posting "The Spirit of the Enterprise" because it's set to the tune of "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" because the author of Battle Hymn doesn't like that the words have been changed." But it seems to me you're talking about an original song by you.
I've never written a song by the title of "The Spirit of the Enterprise."

--Lee
Scott Dorsey
2016-11-29 21:20:27 UTC
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To the tune of Roberta Rogow's _Newcomers Song_.

I am groot. I am groot.
I am groot, I am groot, I am groot.
I am groot, I am groot, I am groot.
I am groot.
I am groot.
(etc.)
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Spear Carrier
2016-11-30 07:43:30 UTC
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Post by Scott Dorsey
To the tune of Roberta Rogow's _Newcomers Song_.
I am groot. I am groot.
I am groot, I am groot, I am groot.
I am groot, I am groot, I am groot.
I am groot.
I am groot.
(etc.)
--scott
Well that certainly makes it easier. I'll have to try it on people to see if it's more or less humorous. =^-^=
Lee Gold XP
2016-11-30 06:55:04 UTC
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Post by Lee Gold XP
I've never written a song by the title of "The Spirit of the Enterprise."
Don't confuse me with LYNN Gold.

--Lee
Spear Carrier
2016-11-30 07:59:47 UTC
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Post by Lee Gold XP
Post by Lee Gold XP
I've never written a song by the title of "The Spirit of the Enterprise."
Don't confuse me with LYNN Gold.
We never said you wrote that song; it was just an example for my husband's confused question. Nowhere does it say anyone named Lynn wrote the song. I don't really know who Lynn Gold even *is* and, no offense, barely know who you are aside from someone on this list. If you don't want your stuff included, then it simply won't be included in any shape or form as I established much much earlier. Your stuff is safe from me, I swear.

"The Spirit of the Enterprise" was credited to B. Toomy and L. Underwood in the book. I don't know them either, but I won't be hunting people down seriously until after the book is scanned in.
Spear Carrier
2016-11-30 07:42:22 UTC
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Post by Lee Gold XP
Post by Spear Carrier
Lee, I get what you're saying but I've got this person here who would like clarification. He's says, "But that's like not posting "The Spirit of the Enterprise" because it's set to the tune of "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" because the author of Battle Hymn doesn't like that the words have been changed." But it seems to me you're talking about an original song by you.
I've never written a song by the title of "The Spirit of the Enterprise."
--Lee
No one said you did? I'm confused. -_-
Arthur T.
2016-11-29 22:25:02 UTC
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This got longer than I meant it to. I think that, to some
extent, that's because I was clarifying my thoughts to myself in
addition to trying to answer your (friend's) question.

In
Message-ID:<2514b0a0-8149-4572-b13c-***@googlegroups.com>,
Spear Carrier <***@akashikonline.com> wrote:

[apparently in reference to Lee's]
Post by Lee Gold XP
I also object to having anything I've witten published (i.e. printed or
put on the Web or recorded) without my permission -- especially with the
words changed or with my name dropped off.
Lee, I get what you're saying but I've got this person here who would like clarification. He's says, "But that's like not posting "The Spirit of the Enterprise" because it's set to the tune of "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" because the author of Battle Hymn doesn't like that the words have been changed." But it seems to me you're talking about an original song by you.
To begin with, IANAL. What follows are my opinions and
understandings.

The MAD decision[1] says that you can print lyrics to any tune,
so long as you don't actually print the tune itself. So the Battle
Hymn example may not be the best (not ignoring the fact that it's out
of copyright).

A mechanical or compulsory license allows you to perform
released songs as long as you pay that fixed license fee and as long
as you don't significantly change the words or tune. But you have to
get specific permission to use the tune with different words.

So, to try to answer your question (and likely follow-up
questions):

First, law (remembering that IANAL):

Whatever is published (in the USA) is copyright. Unless you're
given permission to copy it, you're not allowed to. (Depending on
when it was written, whether it was registered and/or renewed, etc.)

This is why I generally include a license on my filks - to let
people use my lyrics for noncommercial purposes. Otherwise, without
my specific permission, it would be technically illegal. I don't
mention changes and such because I don't want the license to be
longer than my songs (and because I don't like any of the standard CC
terms); otherwise I would.

Some people on this newsgroup do not include such licenses.
Some do so deliberately to reserve their rights.

Common use, ethics, etc.:

I don't think anyone is posting to RMF without the realization
that some people are going to save off some songs for personal use.

Filkers in circles tend to ignore performance rights. But those
who record filks, and probably those who perform filk concerts, must
pay attention to them.

I would not want to find that any of my filks had been printed
(or recorded) without my byline. I would also not like to see any
printed (with or without my name) with changes I hadn't approved, at
least without some notation that these are not my original lyrics,
and you can see the original at such-and-such a place.

I hope that someone is singing my songs at filks. No one
mentions the writer in circles unless they're asked, and I'm fine
with that. People tend to change words to suit their own style and
sensibilities, and I'm also fine with that in the ephemeral medium of
voice performance. (Note that, even so, Gary recently asked if it
was okay for him to change a word of my song when he sings it.)

Finally (and still IANAL):

If someone has written original music for a filk, and someone
else references that music with original lyrics (without printing the
music or performing it), MAD says, "That's okay". Most filkers have
no problems with that (though there are exceptions).

Some filkers actually make a bit of money by publishing their
own lyrics. You could not expect them to allow their lyrics to be
copied and passed around, even for free. If you were printing an
anthology, you wouldn't take someone's story without permission and
without paying royalties.

I expect that many early filk collections were made with the
permission of the lyricists (whether or not it says so anywhere). I
also expect that many were made *without* such permission.

There is a "blanket permission list"[2] of people who do (or do
not) allow their songs to be posted freely to RMF. I think there
used to be a separate list of those who didn't mind their songs being
posted elsewhere, but I can't find it. The fact that this list
exists, shows that some people are touchy about their lyrics being
reposted, even noncommercially.


[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_v._E.C._Publications,_Inc.

[2] http://kayshapero.net/filkblan.htm
--
Arthur T. - ar23hur "at" pobox "dot" com
Spear Carrier
2016-11-30 07:52:59 UTC
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Post by Arthur T.
I hope that someone is singing my songs at filks. No one
mentions the writer in circles unless they're asked, and I'm fine
with that. People tend to change words to suit their own style and
sensibilities, and I'm also fine with that in the ephemeral medium of
voice performance. (Note that, even so, Gary recently asked if it
was okay for him to change a word of my song when he sings it.)
For the record, I always try to give credit where and when it's due not that I've done a lot of performing. I've been under the understanding that this is a bardic thing you do, and you do it as religiously as possible. I know that filking isn't necessarily being a traditional bard, but I have noticed some bleedover... keeping in mind that my participation in both realms has mostly been reading things online and watching from a dark corner.
Post by Arthur T.
Some filkers actually make a bit of money by publishing their
own lyrics. You could not expect them to allow their lyrics to be
copied and passed around, even for free. If you were printing an
anthology, you wouldn't take someone's story without permission and
without paying royalties.
That would be the biggest reason to clear permissions with things of course. I've got a list in front of me getting filled with yay's and nay's. Thank goodness more yay's than nay's... if one of them had said no, we would have had to gut the grimoire and that would have been very very sad.

On a more personal front, if I find out someone does not wish their work to be shared then I would probably never learn it and certainly work not to perform it on principle: it's nothing personal so much as when that area gets grey and murky, you're opening the door to trouble unless you keep it firmly shut.
Post by Arthur T.
I expect that many early filk collections were made with the
permission of the lyricists (whether or not it says so anywhere). I
also expect that many were made *without* such permission.
Those were more carefree times in Hollywood I dare say. =^-^=
Post by Arthur T.
There is a "blanket permission list"[2] of people who do (or do
not) allow their songs to be posted freely to RMF.
Yes, in contact with Kay about that. The list hasn't been updated in years, but then again I am told no one has been sending any updates to have had happen in the first place. =^-^=
Gary McGath
2016-11-30 11:34:26 UTC
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Post by Arthur T.
I expect that many early filk collections were made with the
permission of the lyricists (whether or not it says so anywhere). I
also expect that many were made*without* such permission.
In the early days of filk, both the songs and the books were considered
ephemera, so no one much cared. When filk got more organized, some
publishers of collections got slapped down for using songs without
permission.

The fourth (iirc) edition of the HOPSFA Hymnal has pages which are
covered over with very opaque paper held in place by very strong glue,
just for that reason.

With the Internet, I'm not sure there's any such thing as ephemera any more.
--
Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com
Spear Carrier
2016-11-30 15:50:49 UTC
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Post by Gary McGath
With the Internet, I'm not sure there's any such thing as ephemera any more.
This topic has me curiously wondering about a couple of things.

First, it was indicated elsewhere that it's generally agreed upon and well known that people should not and thus will not take or share someone else's lyrics. I'm over here thinking, no. No it's not. It may be with you guys and those who are being told the social etiquette the way I'm getting told, but then there's all the rest of folks who see lyrics posted everywhere from sunup to sunup the next day with no Hollywood backlash to speak of. There are entire sites dedicated to lyrics and sharing guitar chords - some with commercial dealings on the side, many with material solely input by personal users.

It's because of this I thought a simple song lyric database with cross references for artist, TTO, and genre would be fine. There's been no legal backlash for any of the others, and I had noticed there wasn't one out there or if there was it wasn't very extensive. I had thought that the database would have pages or the artist with links to find their work and other things - I know from experience that finding those lyrics online can make one curious enough to find the artist and sometimes even buy an album.

The general urban knowledge seems to be, you can post lyrics without permission so long as you don't use them in a commercial capacity or go past a certain line. You can't sing a cover of a song without permission of some kind first. (Youtube makes sure you know that one.) Well okay you can sing with the radio or at a birthday party, but Hollywood knows that you know what they mean.

Definitely on the wiki I'm going to include something about this on the front page, cuz knowledge is power.
Jeff Urs
2016-12-01 17:04:44 UTC
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https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.music.filk/4lOdlYRHR_U/KpGZvj9N9YwJ
--
Jeff
Spear Carrier
2016-12-02 16:36:51 UTC
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Post by Jeff Urs
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.music.filk/4lOdlYRHR_U/KpGZvj9N9YwJ
--
Jeff
Here I'd thought the thread had died. =^-^=

What we've decided to do is a hybrid approach. Even the folks on the blanket list, unless they've already given me permission, are going to be asked in regards to the book and the website. I'm going to collect two different permissions: one for the book and one for the website. I know there are some people who are up in arms about this, but it turns out there are just as many if not more who are quite alright with being included.

The problem is with the people are who no longer with us. I can ask one such person's daughter, but the rest are a bit of a mystery.

I don't know that many local so "you can share privately with your friends" is going to count as "you can't share" because you never know. Better safe than sorry. =^-^=

I'm going to begin scanning in the original book in the next day or so to get to a couple of filkers who requested the original. We were going to photocopy it, but we're talking $100 to do that here. It's pretty big. One requested I send them the original, but I can't do that - not without betraying the trust of the person who gave it to me.
Gary McGath
2016-11-30 11:26:27 UTC
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Post by Spear Carrier
Okay. So... if you guys happen to be in the book I should take out the entries when passing it on to other people; gut the book? Not putting your stuff on the web is easy.
Please don't pass on books with copies of any songs I've written, unless
there's reason to think I gave permission. Any con songbooks that have
my songs in them are most likely by my permission; I don't know of any
that aren't.

If you want to privately pass a copy of a song I've written to one or
two people, that's fine.
--
Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com
Spear Carrier
2016-11-30 15:38:07 UTC
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Post by Gary McGath
Please don't pass on books with copies of any songs I've written, unless
there's reason to think I gave permission. Any con songbooks that have
my songs in them are most likely by my permission; I don't know of any
that aren't.
If you want to privately pass a copy of a song I've written to one or
two people, that's fine.
Thank you! I noted this a while back and have your name at the top o my handwritten "no" list right here. Being careful.
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